Melber on the Mic

Free speech has rarely felt more fragile in the United States.

Donald Trump and his allies are openly vowing to punish critics they accuse of spreading “hate speech,” while the president and his administration pursue lawsuits and investigations against critical media outlets.

In a conversation with Status, MSNBC host and chief legal correspondent Ari Melber broke down what these threats mean for journalists and citizens alike, why The New York Times is in a good position as it relates to Trump’s defamation suit, and how uneven standards across the political spectrum distort debates over speech.

Melber also addressed MSNBC’s split from NBC News, the network’s growing investment in digital platforms like YouTube, and the role independent journalism can play in a moment when democracy itself feels under siege.

Below is the Q&A, lightly edited for style.

This week, we saw Donald Trump and Pam Bondi overtly threaten to target those that they see as purveyors of hate speech. How concerned do you think critics of the administration should be of these threats, given we've seen organizations like Media Matters already targeted by the government?

President Trump, and administration officials, have admitted unconstitutional goals in targeting free speech they oppose. That's just a public fact, from Trump to his DOJ to his FCC. So informed people—both journalists and citizens—would rationally take that seriously. That does not mean being alarmist, let alone surrendering the First Amendment rights we have. This is a time to use them and peacefully defend them when they are under attack.

Trump also filed a lawsuit against The New York Times, alleging defamation. As a lawyer, what did you make of it?

The Times just won the first round, getting that case dismissed. Based on my experience practicing First Amendment law, the Times is on solid ground. Several of Trump's suits against the media are quite thin. Many are likely to lose, often before even reaching trial. The Times does not have to worry much about losing this case in court.

In the wake of the Charlie Kirk assassination, MSNBC cut ties with analyst Matthew Dowd for initially speculating that it might have been a “supporter shooting their gun off in celebration” and also saying, "Hateful thoughts lead to hateful words, which then lead to hateful actions." Meanwhile, over on Fox News, hosts like Jesse Watters have made fore more incendiary comments. Why do you believe the standards on the left and right vary so much?

The company has explained that decision. Overall, language debates often operate inside broader dynamics. The U.S. has faced many tense times, periods of unrest, and related concerns over political discourse. Our law has standards that are supposed to be universal—free speech for all, and rules that govern all (no one is allowed to shout "fire" in a crowded building). Efforts to enforce more public or political standards, however, can be murkier. Are all political parties even committed to strictly policing their leaders' speech, or do they bend for their own and sanction the other side? That's a big topic by itself.

In our current politics, there are certainly times when both parties' leaders have condemned violence, like both President Trump and top Democrats rebuking the Minnesota shootings. Other times, President Trump has failed to do that. He minimized the attack on Paul Pelosi, and praised his "special" supporters who stormed the Capitol on Jan. 6, and then pardoned them, including those convicted of sedition and violence against police. That was just the beginning of this year. Has the U.S. really reckoned with a President pardoning political violence? Many people saw that attack in real time on TV, only to watch a President later free those lawless convicts. What is the impact of a president embracing people who led what Mitch McConnell called an insurrection? Does that undermine, or politicize, how some people view responsible discourse now—or even federal laws protecting democracy and Congress? It would seem that any serious assessment of today's speech standards, or a good faith approach to lawful, peaceful democracy, has to actually face those questions.

Switching over to industry news: MSNBC is separating from NBC News. This week, the networks outlined how the transition will work in more detail, with NBC News personnel no longer appearing on MSNBC by late October. What will you miss about being part of the NBCU family and what most excites you for the future?

There have been so many great collaborations over the years. We benefited from a broad, talented team of correspondents, producers and people in the field. The Rockefeller Plaza building is an iconic workplace we associate with long election nights and overnight pizza, pre-dawn arrivals, views of winter ice skating and the Christmas tree, “TODAY” summer concerts—and so many other things we'll miss.

But it’s exciting for us to step out as an independent news entity, however, at this time when independent journalism is so vital. The idea is to be an independent, profitable, self-sufficient company, and do that without fear or favor. MSNBC is also expanding, hiring more than three dozen new correspondents and reporters, and 100+ journalism roles when other newsrooms are cutting back and trimming.

You're one of the rare linear television hosts who has long emphasized and poured effort into having a robust digital presence, particularly on YouTube. Networks and other anchors are starting to play catch up now. What did you see years ago though that others apparently did not?

YouTube is a great resource as the largest streamer—our team at “The Beat” and MSNBC as a news organization both recognize the importance of the platform. Our Friday A-block about Kimmel and free speech already has two million views on YouTube—rivaling the live TV audience for some late night shows. Our special report on the power of states in the second Trump term has over 3.5 million views, with a nerdy John Adams cameo! Older interviews with Bob Woodward and 50 Cent top four and five million views, and we have two longform series that we publish for YouTube, "Mavericks" and "Summit." We try to produce and book the show as both a live TV and streaming program, with material that is interesting after that night's show is over. It shows that the audience loyalty carries over from cable to YouTube, social, and even real-world events, like the upcoming MSNBCLIVE ‘25 event in Manhattan.

We also broke news this week that Business Insider will allow staff to use ChatGPT to generate the first draft of their stories. News outlets are embracing the technology more and more. How do you think shows like "The Beat" can responsibly use tools like ChatGPT?

A.I. is interesting for creative exercises, brainstorming and experimentation. It's not a solid primary source for facts or verification.

I've asked a few guests to assess A.I.'s depiction of them—from tech leaders like Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer to singer Eryka Badu—as one way to draw on the technology, while giving a human the last word.

A.G. Sulzberger said this week that democracy is "in retreat" across the world. Do you agree? And, in an attempt to end this interview on a positive note, what gives you hope for the future?

There's plenty of evidence that democracy and the rule of law face headwinds across the globe. The U.S. slide can certainly be studied in that context, part of a global revolt over inequality and elite failure.

For a positive: history is full of times when things went downhill, or looked hopeless, only to see rebounds and drastic change. We don't usually know what comes next, but I think being engaged, informed and trying is the best course—and usually feels better, too.

In this week’s episode: Jimmy Kimmel’s sudden removal from ABC spotlights Donald Trump’s efforts to weaponize government against his critics—and what it means for free speech in America. We also examine David Ellison’s looming bid for Warner Bros. Discovery and its implications for CNN, plus Business Insider’s all-in bet on A.I. and the risks it brings to journalism.

You can watch on YouTube—or listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Data via Box Office Mojo]